edition ever the mega panel. as the world turns, i'm matt miller. i'll be back tomorrow. "hardball"'s up, right now. stunning verdict. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm "the call" in washington. leading off tonight, not guilty. it's the case that's moved from a tabloid fascination to a mainstream obsession. kagsy anthony accused of killing her own 2-year-old daughter covering up the crime and partying until the dead girl was found. shortly after 2:00 p.m. eastern the world stopped as people stared at cable news channels covering to hear the jury's decision. not guilty of murder or manslaughter. a stunned jaw-dropping moment.

shins most oevs thoughted verdict would go the other way. also, is the republican party willing to risk armageddon? the religion of no taxes? the gop have been the woe javys of the desert willing to bring down the whole country in the service of ideology. no phony crisis. if we're not careful the country risks becoming greece. not ancient greece, by the way, current greece. also, does mitt romney even believe what he says? for once he said president obama made the economy worse. he denies ever saying that. yesterday he said it again. republican, still looking for mr. or ms. right, romney is just mr. right now. after president obama took on the republicans for defending tax breaks for wall street biggy, republicans cried, class warfare, who's playing class warfare when the gop proposes trillions in spending cuts on programs that help regular people and not a penny in new

taxes for the wealthy? let me finish with the people in congress willing to hurt their own country. i'm serious about this. in order to destroy a presidency. starting with the not guilty verdict of casey anthony. thank you for joining us, susan. it's great to you have back. we always have you back at the strangest moments. this jury trial, you know, we all watched the o.j. case. everybody in america seemed to have an opinion whether he was guilty or not. maybe that was resolved in a different way in vegas. months and years later. but this case is so fresh in our minds and hearts. people have watched the face and attitude of casey anthony now for weeks on this network and elsewhere. look at the pick color now. we looked what happened today. incredible emotion of this young woman. were you surprised as an expert by the not guilty verdict on all the capital counts? >> i was shocked and i was stunned, and i stared at my television set in utter disbelief. but i have to remember that my

perception of this case is vastly different from these jurors and from members of the pib lick at large. people thought the three categories generally, chris. she did it -- i don't know what happened i'm so confused. and there's doubt all over the place, as it was an accident. so people actually believe what the defense came up with, or they were just so confused and they had reasonable doubt. as an expert i thought the case was proven and i was shock and stunned by this verdict, chris. >> my father, who sat in court for 30 years as the senior court stenographer in philadelphia told me once if you're innocent have a judge decide the case. the judge will be rational. he or she will make a decision that makes some kind of sense. if you're guilty, go with a jury. you can never predict a jury. just can't predict them. is that your belief or do you continue to hold faith your on judgment outside the court where most of the time match the judgment of the people in the

jury panel? >> no. in my judgment, it doesn't matter. >> that's right. now aren't you surprise the fact the juries have once again shown us that they make decision in that room we're not party to? >> clearly they were sequestered. no infiltration of that jury or they would have known not only was the world watching most of the world already convicted casey anthony. the second thing it shows, they really decided on the evidence or lack thereof presented to them in that courtroom. and they were unanimous. you'd think perhaps along with your death sear think would be a hung jury. nope. a unanimous quick verdict and it sounds 20 me like they'd maids up their minds a long time ago, whatever the state was selling, they weren't buying it. >> let me suggest the possible logical explanation before we hear from the jurors in the days and weeks ahead, one or two will start to talk i assume. we saw on television, learned of

a young girl, a baby, really, was killed. we know all kinds of horror about that. how it wasn't explain and wasn't reported or anything for weeks and weeks and nobody seemed to take responsibility especially the mother. we also saw the attitude of this young woman in court. we all made judgments about the attitude. angry, seemed to be antisocial. who knows what, it was something we were looking at. but there was this giant hole of information between that woman's face we're looking at again here now and a tragedy and could never find ourselves in our minds going step by step to how it happened. you think that's what the jury found itself? and didn't buy this alternative theory that father somehow had done something, but couldn't bring itself step by step to the commission of this horror? >> one theory, there was reasonable doubt. the state did not have a cause of death. didn't actually even have actual proof of murder. and if there was a murder which wasn't exactly proven it was a leap to link casey to it, although there was circle

evidence. then the defense went with that fantasy forensics and had the word of the experts. it's possible the jury said, i don't know who to believe. i'm going to throw it all out. or they actually bought the defense's theory of accident. and that this child died accidentally. there was no murder, which is perhaps why they didn't go for one of the letters included. it wasn't they didn't think she did premedicated. they didn't think this child was murdered at all. >> do you think smouf the grandfather in this case came along and made it look like a crime even though it was an accident? >> a little hard for me, because i did think the prosecution was good when they said, who makes an accident look like murder? and i did think they were also affect wld they said casey an mown poithts the finger at everybody but herself when she's the proven liar of the case. but it's really hard to tell. it's either they thought it was an accident or it just wasn't

good enough to convict. either reasonable doubt or accident. >> let's watch the action. the stunning moment everybody will remember for awail. listen to the not guilty verdict when it was read. >> as for charge of first-degree murder, verdict as to count one, we the jury find the divest not guilty. as to the charge of aggravated child abuse, verdict is to count two, we the jury find the divest not guilty. as to the charge of aggravated manslaughter of a child, verdict is to count three, we the jury find the defendant not guilty. >> bring in nbc's chief legal analyst savannah guthrie. so good to have you, bu i know you so well and know how well you understand these things as an attorney and as a correspondent. that's a big level. he we are a case that fascinated a lot of people, including me. what did you think? can eve you even ayou is

stunned? i. have to say i was surprised. because how quickly the jurors came back with this verdict and the fact it was a wholesale rejection of the prosecution's case. i mean, the jurors had an array of charges to consider. everything from the top charge of first-degree death penalty eligible murder all wait down to just a straight charge of child abuse, and even though anyone watching this case could see the problems of proof the prosecutors were dealt. the fact we don't know when caylee died, or exactly how caylee died although prosecutors had theories that were consistent with the evidence, but the evidence wasn't positive of those theories. at the end of the day, i thought the jurors might get back there in the jury room and say you know what? given her behavior, not reporting the child missing for 31 day, that search of death emanating out of the trunk of the car, multiple witness ace greed to. she's got something to do with this and we may not know what it is but we can't let her walk free. i thought the jurors might do

something like that. i should say what they did do, if they really didn't think prosecutors proved beyond a reasonable doubt. the right thing. looked at lawsuit. looked at the jury instructions and determined the elements of the charges had not been met. i think a lot of people were very stunned. >> one of the things missing, we've been looking just now as you spoke, nice pictures of mother and child playing playfully and delightedly to the ep enjoyment of both. we don't have a guy threatensing his wife for moss, seen yelling at her in it's streets and hitting her finally killing her. no preliminary event that anybody pointed to abuse of this child. as a juror, wait a minute. never had anybody say she hit her daughter, yelled at her daughter, abused her in any way. >> you put your finger on it. i've always thautd, said it a few time, the motive, the weakest part of the prosecution

case. prosecutors don't have to prove motive. it's not an element of the crime. they would not have seen motive on a jury sheet. as a practical matter jurors want to know why people act a certain way. prosecutors like to put on motive. in this case, prosecutors put on evidence of motive. here's a young mother, somebody who was a parent too soonance wantsed to go out and party and live the good life. the problem is, as you point out it wasn't entirely kirchlt with the evidence. yes, there was evidence that she was carefree and wanted to go tout and have a good time. on the other hand, a lot of her contemporary, friends who came in and said we all knew about caylee. all asked for caylee. there weren't boyfriends who said i didn't know she had a daughter. she had a mother and father. the grandparents of caylee, who doted and this child. loved to take care of her and play with letter. so presumably, casey anthony could have, you know, dumped the child on her parents at any time

she wanted to, if she wanted to go out at night. always something about the motive that the prosecutors offered that didn't quite add up to me. although i understand why they argued that as the motive, because to some extent it was consistent with the facts they had. >> susan, back to you with that question. the absence of evidence of abuse was a problem for the jury to condemn her? >> hard to say. there's a link between the videos and what was presented at court. the chloroform and the allegation, she chloroformed her child. to me, that's aggravated child abuse. eve than one instance during the time of the commission of the felony to get to first-degree murder i thought the prosecution did prove child abuse. again, i wasn't on the jury and didn't have the difficulty making the link to the child. circle evidence to me was strong. you step back. what other logical conclusion could you come to by the way the child, savannah points out, the

stench of death in the trunk, the my oh con treeal root of the hair, the way she was disposed of in the swamp? all the things that belonged to her at the time she was found, casey was the only person that had access to. add 2 all up and stand back. as the prosecution said, look at the forest and don't get lost in the trees. it's a mystery like with jonbenet ramsey. what did happened to caylee anthony? >> taking a whack at the media. >> this is a lesson to those of you that have indulged in media assassination for three years, bias and prejudice, and incompetent talking heads saying what would be and how to be. i'm disgusted by some of the lawyers that have done this, and i can tell you that my colleagues from coast to coast and border to border have

condemned this whole process of lawyers getting on television and talking about cases that they don't know a damn thing about and don't have the experience to back up their words or the law to do it. now you learned a lesson. >> savannah, righteous of him, i can only imagine what he would have said if think convicted. the stories they were throwing in front of that jury about the grandfather, seems like you're an expert of defense attorneys. they'll basically do what it takes to get their client off including developing rather absurd even narratives? >> well -- >> go ahead, susan. >> to that i would say, pot, kettle, black. yeah, the prosecution has a job, which is to search for the truth in the courtroom and seek justice. the defense's job, get their client off at any cost. short of crossing an ethical line. savannah, sorry. >> savannah coming up with the idea that the grandfather was

involved in the cover-up to make him look like the villain or something close to it, what defense attorneys are capable of to win a case and they succeeded. >> because we haven't heard from the jurors, we don't know if it was persuasive to the jury. it may be they thought the prosecutors failed to meet their burden of proof and may have rejected the defense theory as much as they rejected the prosecution's theories. until we talk to the jurors we don't know. i thought the prosecutors did a good job of debunking defense theories. why it didn't make sense. the defense lawyer was criticized by the pundits out there who shall remain nameless that there was no need for the defense to tell this elaborate story of george anthony, the cover-up and sexual allegations because, frankly, just picking at the prosecution's evidence and pointing out the weaknesses and flaws in the prosecution's evidence was sufficient to give jurors a reasonable doubt about these charges. until we hear from jurors,

though, we don't know whether they bought the defense's theory or just rejected the prosecution's evidence. >> i'm sure defense attorneys look as the ends to satisfy the means. they got their person off. my dad was right. you can't predict a jury. that was after 30 years of experience. thank you. and thank you savannah guthrie. coming up, back to politics where we belong. the tea party republicans ready to bring down this country's economy in the name of ideology. this is getting serious, and i believe scary. what's perpetrated here. possibly, the falling of united states government on our debt in the world. the party's driven by fanatics and determined to bounce america's savings bonds and have the united states begin to become like greece. and that's ahead you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.

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welcomes back to "hardball." on july 22nd, just 17 days from today the lawmakers need to start the machine, raise the debt ceiling or we could be in an economic disaster. republicans don't want to raise taxes. and joining us from capitol hill, senator mccaskill. your normal, somewhere in the center. and i look around me with fanatics. mostly on the right, some of the

left. seems to me they're quite willing when i hear them talking, your own colleague senator roy blount dismissing the deadline saying the deadline is never really a deadline. i don't think world markets are going to get royaled and i don't think our creditors are not going to get paid. someone from the right, michele bachmann dismissing of not raising the debt. let's listen to her. >> first of all it isn't true that government would default on its debt. very simply the treasury secretary can pay the interest on the debt first and then from there we have to prioritize our spending. >> this to me is scary. what's your jew that these people are willing to go right into armageddon, not face the warning signs. go right off the cliff and take this country into greece, into the way the world watches us go down the hill. >> yeah. it's a real problem, compromise has become a dirty word and prank frankly our countries has been the greatest country on the

planet, because our democracy learned the art of compromise. now compromise is something the two ends of the spectrums don't want to see happen and we're going to suffer for it. the other thing is frustrating about this, chris, that i think they are trying to tell the american people that when we raise the debt limit we're asking for permission to spend more money. that's not true. all we're doing is making good on the spending that's already occurred. this would be like going out and buying a new car. these guys all voted for the spending. they all voted for the things that put us in this deficit position and now they're saying they don't want to pay the bill. it's like they bought a new car and don't want to make payments. it is defaulting, and we will default on obligations our government has. whether it's the people who are getting a social security check or to our military pay or whether it's to our debt that we have to pay, and all of those things would have serious and significant consequences. people need to quit trying to win elections and start solving the problem. >> what seems to me is

paperboys, told buy savings bonds. as good as you can get. now renege, default on savings bonds. it's like a religion to us as kids. now a new crazy religion. you can't raise revenue even when you have higher expenses. >> one of the things we'll do this week which i hope will be helpful. debate a sense of the senate that, you know, the median income has don gown for most american families over the last several years. while last year the ceos of the top fortune 500 companies got a 20% pay raise. last year. a 20% pay raise. and all we're saying is, shouldn't the millionaires, the multi-millionaires, do a little bit to help out here? can't we compromise on both ends of the spectrum? do a little bit on revenue. look at some of the means testing we can do on entitle programs? come up with a comprehensive package that represent as good compromise and do what we should do for our kids and grandkids, and that is, keep america the

economic super power that it's always been in the world. >> you know, i heard this weekend at the aspen ideas people, big idea people get together. never heard it so bluntly. my colleague, wait until he hears this. we're not suffering from inflation with the oil prices up, workers are getting squeezed. paying higher prices answers not getting wages to catch up with them. they're the one, the middle class working person, man and woman, the ones paying for inflation by making less real income. that's what's going on. >> exactly what's going on. and i mean i was fascinated by all of these republicans who wouldn't vote to take away paychecks from the oil companies, from taxpayers. taxpayer subsidies to the most wealthy and successful corporations in the history of the planet and turn around and say subsidies to the people who grow corn are terrible. i'm like, really? really? >> my problem -- senator, one thing we'll hear from friends on left, that is fight harder.

pie question, does the president have any choice between default and defeat? if he stands against the crazies says we'll have to have revenues, they say no and then face default, everybody pay foss for that in this country. in history we pay. any defeat handing the republicans exactly what they want on the right, just spending cuts, no taxes? >> i think it's a big mistake if we don't do what's right, and that is, to do a little bit on the tax expenditure side, clean up the tax code, take it away, some of the goodies from folks doing really well and at the same time, look at some of the means testing we should have put in place in the first place in medicare part d. we shouldn't be buying warren buffett's prescription drugs, for god's sake. we're broke! we can't afford to buy ridge people's drugs. i believe we should hold out for the compromise. i hope the american people agree. there's nothing wrong with being in the moderate middle if it

means you find some common sense collusions. >> -- common sense solutions. this is a tough one. i agree. this isn't about metaphor or crazy talk. this is about loony tuned history from some. this is about america and what's happening in greece. when you spend time with economists they scare the bedickens out of you because we look at countries going into default and insolvent now and we're willing to say to creditors around the world, we're not paying you. the united states we grew up with is no longer good for its debt. we're now a deadbeat country. >> this is a kind of economic hostagetaking, chris. you know and it i know it. it actually does have something in common with what you and i have been talking about these last two years. these people, the tea partiers and their friends and their neighbors and their corporate friends like dick armey, they have created this shrieking on the right, and this sense of the

country being ungovernable and the sense that the majority of people feel this way, when you and i both know. most people think the deficit is a much lower problem than jobs. people nope the middle class is being squeezes. the middle class squeeze is actually making the deficit work because people cannot pay their taxes, are getting unemployment. making the economy bet sir actually good for the deficit. the president's trying to say that. you know, he can't cave now. he can't cave now and i know -- >> what's the alternative? here's the question. >> i don't know. you know what? you and i sit here -- >> is it default or defeat? can be the only two options. >> they are really willing to go to default, because if the economy falls apart, it's on his shoulders, but if he caves entirely on all spending cuts and no revenue, he's missed and opportunity to make a deal and the economy -- >> how does he do it? >> that is bad -- i don't know how it does it. if he doesn't do it by

compromises now and i don't do it by telling him to compromise, please, don't put me on the far left because i'm not. but as long as people on the left are not sitting here saying, these are our principles. this is what we need to do for the economy. this is hurting the economy. and this tiny minority who does not represent the american people is forcing us to do this. they raised the debt ceiling seven times under george w. bush. medicare part d, as the wars and tax cuts i. agree. i'm with you on this. by the way, if we're spending 25% of or gdp and taxing 16%, we can see where we have to hit. got to raise revenues. part of the solution. there is no other way in the world. anybody looking at those numbers. we can't -- tax people so little compared to what we're spending, can't. >> paying lowest taxes in more than 50 years. more than my lifetime and still complaining. and some are complaining. good business people know this

game of chicken in particular is deadly and it's wrong and hostagetaking. you shouldn't negotiate with hostage-takers. >> i agree it's terrorism. up next, what happened when republican rivals mitt romney and jon huntsman crossed paths on the fourth of july up in new hampshire? it wasn't that exciting. how could it be with those two guys? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. >> we've got a flood. this is where the rubber hits the road, the nose breaks the grindstone, and the angels start second guessing where they tread. ♪ call 1-800-steemer

back to "hardball" and now to the "sideshow" return of the no nothings. foreign policy experience. who needs it? 2012 hopeful herman cain, never held an office, ton the "today" show. >> and i'm already talking to national security people. former intelligence people. talking to former generals and people in the miller to to begin to develop ideas about how i would deal with those crises that we're in.

you don't need foreign policy experience to know who your friends are and who your enemies are and you don't need foreign policy experience to know that you don't tell your enemy what your next move is. >> what you don't know won't hurt you, we're getting what i don't know won't hurt you. preposterous. remember, sarah palin sell as version of it and millions are buying it. next, when candidates collide. mitt romney and jon huntsman yesterday crossed paths at a parade in the granite say the. romney came over and said, welcome to new hampshire. it's not beijing but it's lovely. huntsman response, the air is breathable. who are these people that talk like this? geniuses in small talk and spontaneity ain't their strong suits. let's roll in the teleprompters. up next, mitt romney's doubles down in the latest flip-flop about president obama and the economy. there he is again. no wonder republicans don't seem to be happy with the presidential candidate this time around. you're watching "hardball,"

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i'm sue herera with your cnbc market wrap. stocks stumbling in light holiday trading. the dow jones industrial giving up almost 13 points. the s&p 500 down about a point, but the nasdaq actually added 9 points. the bums ran out of steam heading into the close but a lot less profit-taking today than analysts expected after last week's impressive gain opinions look at the s&p 500 today. moody's downgraded portugal's credit rating four notches. right at 2:00. the economic problem there's are no big secret. you can see it bounced back quickly after a mid-day dip. netflix soaring 8% on word it's expanding it's video streaming business to 43 countries in latin america and

the caribbean. and chinese search engine is teaming up with microsoft to deliver big results on their search page. no compensation involved but the companies see it as a win-win proposition. that's it for cnbc. we are first in business worldwide. and now back to chris and "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." the republican party is known for resting mitch of its power in governing and pride themselves in picking a presidential candidate early as they did with george w. back in 2000. why are we seeing gop leaders coalescing around a candidate? why don't they seem to be happy with the candidate list making the rounds now? chief are politic coe and with new york magazine covering the romney campaign for what it is up in new hampshire. i want to start with john

harasin. jump in there right away, seems to me, look at romney in action here. there ain't much to watch but here he is and then we'll judge him. does romney really know where he stands where it kwums to fundamental questions how the economy's and the president is doing? here's romney hitting obama over the recession. >> when he took office the economy was in recession, and he made it worse. >> what this president has done has slowed the economy. he didn't create the recession, but he made it worse. >> and longer. the president's failed. he did not cause this recession, but he made it worse. >> last week when an nbc producer asked him if the economy was really worse than it was in 2009, romney walked back those statements. >> i didn't say the things were worse. what i said was that the economy hasn't turned around. >> well he did, of course, say they were worse. we taped it three time.

after getting backtracked he reverted to his original charge against the president yesterday. let's listen to the latest. >> president obama did not cause the downturn, but he made the recession deeper and longer than it needed to be, and he made the recovery anemic. >> john, maybe that's one of the reasons republican big shots like the governors across the country, the boys club if you will, some women as well, are wondering at the top why they don't have a strong candidate when they have a strong opportunity? what's the feeling about romney? can he perform? does he have the right stuff to win a fairly winnable campaign against this president given economic conditions? >> the republican establishment and in particular the people you mentioned, the republican governors are not necessarily even liking mitt romney is encapsulated. doubts about his candidacy skills. is he 134g somebody that is going to be effective in taking

the fight to president obama? the fall of 2012? as you say, it's a great opportunity in some ways, and in other ways they recognize that president obama's going to be a formidable opponent. is romney up to it? bill clinton out in aspen this weekend, at the so-called ideas festival, he said romney's a candidate, getting way better. much improved candidate versus 2008, but that series of clips showed, either that's grading on a curve. >> you think they might be sandbagging the guy? >> look, he's had good days and not so good days and he a run of not so good days and it really raises -- it reminds people anew why they're somewhat skeptical of him. he's clearly the front-runner but among the weaker frnt front runneers we've seen in some time. >> looks like he's sandbagging, saying what a great job romney is doing when he isn't doing a great job. blow him up so he looks big and

fat so we can eat him? >> well -- >> clinton is that strategic? >> that's strategic times ten. i wouldn't put anything past bill clinton in that area. there is a means a notion, that romney is better and on the stump, i can say i've seen him a couple times today and yesterday, i think it's generally true. he is more comfortable speaking in front of groups. more comfortable taking questions from people. he is more natural and more fluid and easier on his feet, but he still have have the tendency sometimes to put his foot in his mouth and the problem as john harris alluded to, because he has this reputation from 2008 as having been a flip-flopper, everyone's antennas are on high alert trying to catch him. it's true for a lot of the press, the republican establishment and some republican primary voters. they think that's a big problem for him and are very much on the lookout probably giving him worse scrutiny than other

candidates s. he mr. right or mr. right now? >> he's certainly mr. right now and, look, chris, you cited george w. bush, a front-runner who people coalesced in 2000. it wasn't the case in 2008. john mccain collapsed in the summer of 2007, and then managed to resurrect himself back in 1996. not a lot of notable enthusiasm for bob dole and yet in the end, faced with a weak opposition he was able to win the nomination easily. you don't need to have early coalescens to emerge the victor in the end nap maybe the case for romney this time. >> no excitement about these candidates. i get a weak fill of candidates in what could be a good year for republicans. this election, you all agree, a 50/50, at best a toss-up? awe agree? >> agree. >> agree. >> a toss-up. here's michele bachmann on "face the nation" saying there's no danger of defaulting on the

debt. i don't think this is a responsible statement for somebody who is one of the front-runners, but let's listen to her. >> first of all, it isn't true that the government would default on its debt, because very simply, the treasury secretary can pay the interest on the debt first and then from there we have to just prioritize our spending. the interest on the debt isn't anymore than 10% at what we're taking in. in fact, it's less than that. and so the treasury secretary can very simply pay the interest on the debt first, then we're not in default. >> ah. she sounds like somebody who has just been talked to by somebody selling a thousands her. like it's a balloon loan. e you don't have to pay anything but the interest. i'm sorry, michele bachmann sounds like somebody that's not a responsible leader if they're saying we don't see a default problem coming up in august. when everybody -- this is tea party talk. is it american leadership talk? somebody who cares about the country who's talking here? >> look, michele bachmann has a great year for the republican

conversation. it's not her making that point. we're hearing a lot of that from congress. tim geithner has had to push back against this line ever reasons, try this at home. try skipping out on your electric bill and water bill and see if that effects your ability to get a mortgage. >> sound like, sounds like she's talking like a person who doesn't want to face up to the realities of governing, simply the reality is of right wing politics. >> i think she's talking like a person who understands what the constituencies want to hear. i heard today on the radio, former reagan budget director making the same point, but making point because he wants to see credit crisis because he believes the only way for there to be real long-term reform until our fiscal priorities and fiscal planning is for there to be a huge crisis in the bond market. there are people throughout talking about it, but not generally talking about it unless they're trying to provoke a crisis or unless they don't know what they're talking about.

>> stockton the guy that got us into this mess in the '80s. he's the guy. some day we'll deal with the deficit, deal with spending cuts. he got us on this path to insanity. david stockton. i don't think he's paid his student loans, by the way. a thought. a problem way back when. pat monahan blup the whistle on him. probably paid by now. thank you both for joining us. up next, republicans and democrats continue to fight over raising the debt ceiling. is that a boat side to make a deal without looking like a loser? we'll ask the straft jits. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] we are americans.

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welcome back to "hardball." as we head back towards the deficit deadline of august 2nd does either party benefit if america defaultses? which party will get its way? ask the "hardball" strategists. and up to capitol hill and a republican right in front of me. who wins if we have disaster? i mean real disaster. not missing a deadline. i'm talking about default, watching the world headlines and the world newspapers all saying the united states is screwing around, not even paying their bills for the first time in history? >> short sellers. no incumbent wins if the economy

collapses. all incumbents lose. that's why i thinkdeal. it won't be a deal that president obama witness. >> whether will we get it? middle of august. >> this is exactly the tea party message -- don't take seriously the problem, wait until we reach and in fact go into catastrophe and the world headlines and spiking of interest rates and default on a loan, and then oh then at 4:00 on sunday morning actually do something, because the tea party has given boehner permission to act like he's a leader for once. your thoughts. i didn't expect it from you, feehery. it's not going to be a catastrophe. >> let's keep going. >> there's not an incumbent who benefits from the government shutting down and america defaulting, i don't think there's a presidential candidates, michele bachmann notwithstanding, who will benefit from it. everyone will get. when the stock market goes down

800 points, the republican caucus will tremble, because they'll understand finally what it is their brinksmanship has done. they'll also appreciate a bit more the bully pulpit that president obama has, baud at the end of the day this think probably will get resolved. it won't get resolved as quickly as it should, but the president is looking like the reasonable party here, and the tea party republicans are the ones liking unreasonable. >> steve, steve. corporate tax breaks, big jet tax breaks, it doesn't look right. >> the world's watching greece last week, and the parliament pushed through a serious budget. all of a sudden the world was at ease, with a serious sense of relief. you don't think they'll be watching us when we start messing around with this and don't get it done. you don't think we'll notice. it's august 3rd, 5th or 9th, you don't think they won't be watching this and saying you're

blowing it? there's something wrong with america today? >> right now with this nonsense about corporate jets, that won't close any gaps. >> don't get off on a tangent. >> this is all political games, and it happens before a big deal happens. >> john, john -- >> are you saying the united states won't pay its debts. >> it will pay its debts. it could be a couple days later. pay their debts -- this happened in '96, '97. i loved through this. >> it's not the same. >> you have the tea party people out there. >> man, it's nonsense, the president doesn't look presidential. that press conference today was ridiculous. >> no, it wasn't, john, john. >> last week it was immature, including with you msnbc performer said it was amateurish. >> slow down, john. he did what people expect him to

do. he invited leaders to the white house to sit down. i think he should invite the c-span cameras. could i just finish, john? >> he wouldn't do it. steve, you're spouting nonsense. >> can i just finish a sentence, please? i think he should invite the c-span cameras in. >> what scares me is this is what's happening. >> that we're going to shut down the government, to protect corporate jets, the deductibility, because that's what the republicans are saying, john. >> six months as they could have done all this stuff on taxes. instead they extended the bush taxes, you know why? the economy was slowing down. >> feehery, i'm afraid the 345d hatter's tea party has taken over. it's not funny. it is ludicrous. let me begin with the dead beats on the right who want america to shirk its duties. hey, i'm troy polamalu, and i owe my great hair to head & shoulders. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ng hair.

you making fun of me? no. you making fun of me? yes. [ male announcer ] head & shoulders. 7 benefits. 1 bottle. is now honey nut cheerios! yup, america's favorite. so we're celebrating the honey sweetness, crunchy oats and... hey! don't forget me!! honey nut cheerios. make it your favorite too!

let me finish tonight with some words i have for the screaming fanatics we hear seriously talking about the united states government refusing to pay what it owes. deadbeats. that's the word we call them. people who buy things and don't pay for them. people who make bets and don't cover them. how about this? you've got people out there telling the american public we don't have to be as good as our word. we don't have to honor the pledge the u.s. government has

made since i was delivering newspapers, believing there's nothing on earth as solid as a u.s. savings bond. we have people who have taken an oath to defend this government saying the government doesn't have to be what we've been talk to as being up to as good as its word. congresswom congresswoman bachmann pushing it, selling the national debt as some kind of balloon low that we can make low interest payments on and hope that somehow things will turn out swimmingly that we don't have to pay what we really owe, that it doesn't have a real-life price tag, we can wish away responsibility. we have a challenge to ensure our government doesn't refuse to pay what it owes. we have from now july 5th, to july 22nd, 2 and a half weeksing to a bill passed. if it doesn't happen we can expect the united states talking up that we're joining greece on

becoming a government that has solvency problem. we'll hear the deathwatch. we'll hear the roar grow louder, see the markets start to fall, the rates of interest charged go higher, and america will suffer a loss of reputation that will be real, will matter and not erased by time. once you have a reason to doubt a country's commitment to meet its debts, they will always know there's times when the united states is not really there, not sure to its commitments, because it's happened before. it happened in 2011, when the uss congress refused to do its job, when american business refused to raise the alarm, when you american people sat and watched's the phrase "as good as the u.s. government became something not so good at all" at that point the only winners will be those abroad who don't like this country and those here willing to hurt even their own country in order to hurt this president. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. more